Why the Intersection of B2B SaaS and AI is So Exciting

Jim Gochee 00:01
Welcome to startup success, the podcast for startup founders and investors. Here you’ll find stories of success from others in the trenches as they work to scale some of the fastest growing startups in the world stories that will help you in your own journey. startup success starts now.

Kate 00:18
Welcome to startup success. My guest today is Jim Gochee, the CEO of Blameless and I’m excited to get into Blameless. They are an incident management software that brings together AI driven incident reporting. So that will be a good discussion. But just to highlight some things about Jim’s background, he was COO of Castle, which we’re all familiar with, and had a lot of roles at New Relic and some other great companies. So Jim, we’re super excited to have you here. Thanks for joining us.

Jim Gochee 00:51
Yeah, thank you. It’s great to be here.

Kate 00:53
So before we get into your current role, and Blameless if you could just kind of give us an overview of your background, that would be helpful.

Jim Gochee 01:03
Yeah. Well, you know, I’ve always been an entrepreneur ever since I was a young kid. And I started my first company when I was 16 years old, but you know, I didn’t stick didn’t stick with entrepreneurism. So after going to college, I got a corporate job, but it was my dream job. So I have a computer science degree and what brightspot. So I ended up working for Apple, which was fantastic – one of the highlights of my career. But then I sort of did a number of other smaller companies after Apple and I do really like this smaller kind of entrepreneurial side of things, right? It’s just like, you can make a bigger impact. And it’s very much like, you know, like, we need ideas, and we’re trying to figure out, you know, things that just always really has appealed to me. So it’s kind of in my blood says,

Kate 01:52
I agree, I think that working for a larger company that you cited Apple, which is so well renowned, in so many ways, gives you a good foundation for me, I worked at visa and I learned so much, but then you move into these startups, you’re moving so fast, are you You know, you can see how your work is having an impact right away, you’re involved in so much, it makes a big difference. So where your past positions that you cited, how did they kind of shape your trajectory to get you to Blameless?

Jim Gochee 02:27
Well, at Apple, you know, I got a real appreciation for consumer technology. And I worked at a software division. And you know, Apple was kind of known for the quality of the user experience and all that and, but then my career took a little bit of a different turn into into business software, and then then into B2B SaaS, and, you know, as B2B SaaS has evolved, it looks a lot more like consumer user experiences. So enterprise software used to just be pretty junky. And you know, users demanded more, they’re like, hey, look, like why do I have this fantastic, you know, experience on my PC, but I go to use my business, like the most terrible thing ever. And so, you know, they really demanded of companies to raise the bar on the quality of it. But I really do like business, like B2B SaaS, I like business software. And the main reason is, as you know, businesses are out there solving real problems, and they often need help. And if you build something that you could really look at, like, you know, is it valuable? You know, what’s their ROI, things like that, it’s, I don’t know, it’s like a little more, you know, sort of tangible of like, you build something of value, people will buy it, whereas consumer products are more fickle, and maybe open to trends and fads. Right, business software is a little more down to earth. And so I think if you look at my, you know, shaping of my career, I think I realized how much more I enjoy, yes, sort of beauties. In SaaS, in particular, you know, when software, you know, business offer used to be delivered on a CD, and you’d install it on your workstation. And then the internet really changed that dynamic. And, I thought that was great. You know, as a software developer, I can write software, I can update a website, and now everybody has access to it, who’s using the browser? That was just there. That was just a really monumental leap forward for me. And I was like, Well, this is great, because, you know, as an engineer, I can just directly connect into my customers and bypass all the other stuff you used to have to do to ship software.

Kate 04:42
I think you summed that up really well because I remember those days, too, when you’re, you’re B2B software was clunky and hard to use, you know, difficult UI constantly on the phone with it, and you’re, you know, there was so much happening in Consumer and it has really shifted and people do expect a lot more. And it’s made the whole area more fun. Like you said, right?

Jim Gochee 05:11
Yeah, it really has. And then you know a lot of software now you can have a free trial. So now the decision whether to buy or not often comes down to the trial experience and the product experience. And that’s both fantastic in one sense, and very scary in another sense. But that evolution really again, emphasizes the quality, the usability, the ease of use, you know, you’re gonna throw someone into your software to try it out. It better be darn good, right? And if it is, people will buy it. So just sets the bar very high. And I know you use Calendly. And I think Calendly is a great example of this where you know, a very simple problem, but an important problem, you know how to schedule with people in but they made it so that you never have to talk to anybody, you can just try it. And then you start to use it, and you’re like, Wow, this was really, really great. I’m gonna buy it. I mean, you probably tried it and bought it. My guess is you never had to interact with a salesperson.

Kate 06:19
Absolutely. And when you were speaking, I’m actually doing the same thing right now with HubSpot. I’m in the midst of a free trial, we’re changing CRMs, same thing, it’s that’s what’s selling me not a demo right or anything like that. It’s the actual software and having that seven day trial. So yes, very good point. I want to get to AI in a second. But I think you set something up here that will be of interest to a lot of our users. And that is building the SaaS brand. And you’re kind of segwaying into this with the seven day trial and the emphasis on quality and giving the user a really good experience. So if we could just segue into that, first, I think that would be helpful. You’ve set it up nicely.

Jim Gochee 07:05
Yes. So you know, if you have a great trIal, yeah, I think of it as a funnel, right. And most people do, it’s never a perfect funnel, but you generally have people just learning about you. And there’s, you know, the dark funnel, which they’re learning about you, but you have no idea. And then there’s the funnel that you can measure, which is probably they came to your website, or they opened an email or something. So then there’s like measurable, and then you know, you have different stages you’re trying to get people through, but building you know, there’s I know there’s, you know, different sorts of theories on the upper end of the funnel and how to how to do it, but in that lower to mid end, it’s getting clearer let the product speak for itself. And then you know, really honestly, like a lot of sales in you know, sort of awareness used to be outbound. But I see fewer and fewer people, you know, having success going outbound, it’s, it’s very noisy, it’s very crowded, I get outbounded to you all the time, you probably do as well, from them, you know, most I see what most companies are trying to do is just generate that demand through different strategies of creating content, or, you know, being out there being a trusted adviser, you know, in our case, what we do, you know, the industry is very curious to learn more about it. So we’ve had a lot of success posting blog articles on, you know, sort of our point of view on enterprise reliability, and how to use incident response tools. Yeah, this this, this is a much more interesting, I think model, it puts a lot more emphasis on you know, like creating things, but then those things can scale. And you’re just expecting some conversion rate, some number of people are going to want to learn more, and come in, come and talk to you. So your brand, you know, you build your brand. And then if you have everything else, that’s a little more self service, then people can kind of fall through, you know, the funnel without ever having to talk to somebody. And I think that’s a great design goal, if you can do it as people are just in different places. And I think I personally would rather learn myself. And you know, read content and dig deeper and look at GE to maybe for you know, comparisons, and then try a product like I don’t really want to be sold to that mode. I’m just very skeptical at this point. I think most people like you know, you buy stuff, then you realize, yeah, this will be a bill of goods. So you kind of need to see it to believe.

Kate 09:35
I think you’ve brought up some good points about building a brand right now. The other thing too, is the way people consume information. It’s 24/7. Right? You may be up one night, late at 11 o’clock at night and digging into all this information online and comparing products yourself. Whereas before I mean, when I first started my career, you worked eight to seven right In the office in front of your computer, you didn’t have laptops as easily and phones. And so the way you’ve described building a brand, I think founders listening should take note. That’s how people consume information right now, instead of scheduling the demo. So talk, let’s move into Blameless now and, and the brand you’re building and, you know, give us an overview, and then we’ll move into the AI piece.

Jim Gochee 10:27
Yeah, well, there was a really important problem that I had previously in my career that led me to this idea. And when I was at New Relic, I oversaw a pretty large software, and, you know, DevOps and infrastructure team. Once that team, you know, got to be about 100 people. And it grew eventually to 500. But between the 100 to 500 zone, I noticed that there was a lot of chaos and frustration, whatever, we had a slight issue. And the main reason is, if you think about it, like let’s say we have 50 developers, and each of them is writing code. And we use continuous deployment of that code. So every day, we might have done hand code pushes. And so our production site is changing. Well, something breaks as it inevitably will. And then there is a little bit of chaos and uncertainty, which change broke it, why did it break, maybe actually changed it and break it, maybe we just had a scaling limit on a resource that we didn’t previously know, at a scale a limit. And so maybe we just hit a limit, you know, maybe we’re having a good month and usage was going up, and then boom, it blew up, right. New Relic was a very successful startup. And in, so it was high growth and scaling. So we did run into problems all along the way, I just noticed that chaos. And then I noticed the teams didn’t know how to respond effectively. And so we ended up building a lot of tooling to really help in we kind of encoded, you know, like checklists and steps. And we have, you know, created this official notion of an incident commander. So whenever there was an incident declared, you know, someone always had to be like, you’re going to be the commander. And then now you’ve got to do these things, we assigned a communications lead to keep the rest of the company updated on what was going on. And so we basically, we helped formalize what incident response looked like, and we put it into a Slack bot. And so when you trigger the Slack bot that gets into a channel, and it’s telling people what to do, you’re gonna do this, this needs to get done. And that’s how that’s how we ensured that our process was being followed. Then I realized we had other problems after incidents were resolved. Like we weren’t really great at doing retrospectives all the time. And honestly, we were even just having a very hard time knowing exactly what our historical trending was. So we did some tooling around that. So fast forward to a year and a half ago, this company Blameless, reached out to me and said, Hey, like, you know, we’re looking, we’re looking for a new CEO, we think you’d be a great fit. I was like, Yeah, I’ve lived with this problem. And I have a lot of passion around this problem personally. So, you know, we built our own at New Relic, Blameless, built their own inside kind of been, you know, in parallel streams with the company, and it was really fun to come over and and take the helm here,

Kate 13:40
I bet. How did Blameless find you?

Jim Gochee 13:43
Well, you know, as these things go, just a cold outreach from an executive recruiter, which I normally don’t take. But, you know, when someone sends you a cold outreach, and it’s like, so straight within your wheelhouse, so you think to yourself, This is either fake, or they know me really well, or this is a real thing. And it turned out to be real.

Kate 14:05
But they didn’t know that you had built this at New Relic

Jim Gochee 14:09
No, they didn’t. That was a bit of coincidence.

Kate 14:11
Right, seriously. So tell us about how Blameless works.

Jim Gochee 14:18
So there are a couple of different components to it. But there is a Slack bot and Slack bots are fantastic for engineering teams, because they live in Slack. Usually, you’ll see a lot of, you know, tools designed for engineers and infrastructure engineers in Slack, just a very, very nice place. You know, it’s almost like command line and you know, it also is very appealing to the engineering crowd. They can execute commands, right? And then things go off and they happen. So we have, we have a Slack bot. We also have a website and you can then log into our website. You can think about that as like answering questions, you know, Like, we’ll show me all the previous incidents and show me the history of every incident, and then show you some dashboards where I do some reporting and dig into. And we’re a SaaS service. So you sign up for us. And we charge you based on the number of users that need kind of deep access to the product. Okay, so you pay at the most like, $45 a month, per user who’s actively in it. And that would be your development team, their engineering team, normally, if you’re not actively in it, you know, it’s going to be less than that. And if like, for example, some companies, their customer support team wants to be aware of what incidents there are, because now they’re gonna face into customers, customers, like, hey, websites down, are you having an issue? And they’re like, Yep, we’re aware of it. But they need to kind of follow along and see, you know, is the team fixing status and any updates and ETA for when it’s going to be back online? So yeah, so that’s, that’s basically the product in a nutshell. So it’s a really nice website with a lot of data, we pull data in from other tools. So we’re a bit of a tool connector, you know, we can basically take like, let’s say there was an incident in digging into it, you realized you wanted to, you need to make like three changes to your code so that this won’t happen again. Most companies in the tech space use Atlassian’s JIRA product to track issues and those are, you know, then things that the engineering team will go fix. So we have an interconnect with JIRA, we have an interconnect with Pager Duty, which is one of the most common ways that people just get alerted that there’s a problem. So they get paged with Pager Duty. So we have these interconnects with other tools as well. And that makes us just a bit of a Nexus or a hub in your tool suite for helping you bring everything together to really standardize and formalize and just make it a much more efficient process to go through incidents.

Kate 16:50
Yes, it sounds like it would be extremely helpful based on the way you described the impact these incidents had at New Relic, right? Like they could really set you back and cause a lot of chaos and disruption.

Jim Gochee 17:07
Yeah, we’ve done some ROI work. And this is a great one as a B2B company, I kind of touched on ROI and why like, there’s no software out there. You know, the thing with ROI calculators is you’ll never tell a customer something they already don’t know. And you know, what you basically say is, hey, this is the cost, indirect and direct of an outage. Now, I’m not going to tell you what it costs you, you fill that in, personally, but are we all in agreement that an outage has a cost? Yes, that outage has a cost that can break down in these way? Oh, yeah, I agree. Okay, well, then fill in your data. And let’s take a look at you know, how much outages cost you. Okay, now, let’s see, you know, if you use the tool, how much do you think you could, you know, reduce the amount of time you’ve reduced the time that your website was down? Or, you know, may prove someone’s efficiency or effectiveness? Or what if you could improve communications? What value would you and so, you know, basically, this is a fantastic technique to get people to really see what you do and see the value of it. So they’re like, wow, like this, you know, I get it, if I use your tool to use it in this way, I could get a, you know, 10x return on my investment. Right. Right. It sounds like a great deal,

Kate 18:28
I can see that you would have a very strong value proposition when you outline it that way. Absolutely. So, where does AI come into this? Is it synchronizing everything? Is it pulling all the information? I mean, I’m probably simplifying it.

Jim Gochee 18:48
Yeah, well, I think the most interesting, you know, I sort of historically has meant many different types of AI, but let’s just do the new modern stuff, and sort of the, you know, chat GPT these are the things that are super exciting. We’ve identified at least, like six, or a major areas where AI is actually really going to help in our particular product. Okay. And, you know, I would say what AI is really good at right now. I mean, it’s good at many things, but what it’s really good at is language and explaining things. And so the very first feature that we implemented with AI was we call it a Communications Assistant. So, you know, imagine there’s an outage and somebody needs to post a status update. Just call it internally within the company, you know, you know often those are indecipherable by the people that are reading them because they’re not techies and so you have a techie posting an update and people reading. And they’re like, we’re not really sure if it’s true, you know, the first thing that we did, and we had a lot of successes, we just fed an AI engine, these like techy status updates, and we said rewrite them and rewrite them for a non technical audience. And you’d be surprised at actually how good it was at taking confusing, complicated looking update, and just kind of simplify like, you know what it might mean for a customer support person, or, you know, a salesperson. But see, there’s a little bit of a hidden iceberg. We always think, well, outages just affect existing customers. And it’s like, Well, you probably had people in a trial, and the sales team is trying to close them in the quarter. And so whenever the site’s down, everybody on the sales team is like, well, what’s going on? Because I’ve got three customers that I’m trying to sell to Yes. And they’re going to ask me what’s happening because they’re doing a trial and your website’s down. So they also need Oh, and, you know, I hate that maybe this is a generalization, but it’s like, you know, tech speak on one end of the spectrum, and you know, salespeople Oh, yeah, on the other. It’s like, yeah, they need a bridge. And they do it AI can be that bridge. And so this, this new feature, we launched it, and we immediately had a lot of customer conversations, like, wow, this is great. What about this? What about this? And the next thing we realized is, you know, why does a human have to give us data? So if the AI engine had full access to the Slack history as the incidents being worked on, why can’t the AI generate a very brief update periodically. And in fact, we’ve been testing this in house and we’re about to release this feature, it can, it can do a very good job. And so this is fantastic. Because now anybody who wants to get an update, right, we can use AI to deliver that, in the team working on the problem, never asked to take a pause, to write a status update. And, you know, there’s also a funny thing here where it’s like, you know, if you’re an engineer, and you’re asked to give an update, that’s going to be read by the whole company, you get that writer’s block, man, like, they’re just like introverts, right.

Kate 22:17
I think that would make an engineer nervous.

Jim Gochee 22:19
Yeah. You know, I mean writing is not their natural language. Writing code is and so we thought, great. And then we talked to one customer, and they said, Well, this would be good for my CEO. Because whenever there’s an issue, my CEO jumps into Slack, it immediately starts bothering everybody what’s going on? How did this happen? Where are we at and causing problems? They’re really slowing down the team that’s working on fixing it. And so you know, I think this is also where the automatic updates can come in handy as an executive, you just want to be notified of what’s going on lately. And the fact that she could get it without having the team do it is really interesting.

Kate 23:04
Absolutely, because you get the CEOs mindset, they’re anxious about it, right? So they don’t realize how distracting and disruptive they might be being. So yes, so those are great examples. Are you pretty, I mean, to me, that’s the thing about AI and how it’s being portrayed. Right now, there’s a lot of really great use cases for it, but there’s been a focus on some of the negatives. Are you pretty bullish on it, then, in terms of how it can be used in software development?

Jim Gochee 23:35
Yeah, in software development, you know, Google’s version of AI, called Bard is particularly good at writing software, doing code reviews of other people’s software, you know, finding potential issues in the code or whatever. it’s actually it’s quite good. Now, we’re not in the software development area that like, we’re more on like Operation stuff, right. But what I feel like is AI will be a real help to various aspects of software development, deployment, observability, monitoring, reliability, incident management, I think AI is actually going to really help in all those categories based on what we’re seeing.

Kate 24:23
That’s great to hear. So I have to switch gears and ask you about something that piqued my interest. And I know for people listening carefully, it will pique their interest as well. And that is you talked about how Blameless reached out to you to be the CEO. And that’s pretty unusual that the CEO isn’t one of the original founders. Right. So how was that experience Ben, stepping into a startup as CEO?

Jim Gochee 24:50
Well, you know, I look, I mean, I think most companies will do better if a founder is able to go through that journey, and in the case of Blameless, two of the three original founders did take the CEO role at one point. And, you know, a company reaches that stage of size and scale and grow worse, where sometimes those original founders don’t really feel like it’s what they want to keep doing, you know, if a founder really wants to keep doing it, and they’re committed to learning and growing and sticking with it, then, that’s how you sort of keep keep going with it. And I do think that’s a very successful model. But when you think about it, even companies like Apple, like eventually, the company outgrew Steve Jobs, right? He went away, he eventually grew, he came back, because it is hard to bring in an outsider, especially right into the business and just in sort of know, the business that well. So, you know, I, by the time the company found me, you know, everybody had gotten very comfortable about bringing in an outsider, but I would say, you know, CEO transitions and transitions from founders to outsiders, is a very tricky business. And, you know, I don’t know how deep you want to go into it. But I would say like, that’s a very sensitive thing to just be very careful as you navigate through that transition like that,

Kate 26:26
Did you take your time and kind of go in with a mode of like, information collecting at first and learning everybody’s roles and things like that? I mean, I think you would have to be kind of cautious at first, right?

Jim Gochee 26:40
Yeah, well, you know, there’s like two ways to look at CEO transitions. In private equity, what they tend to do is completely replace anybody in a leadership spot. Yeah. And the reason is, is the theory there is, some of the leaders may be good, some not. But as a leadership team, they never really made the company sing. And so private equity is going to step in and buy it, and let’s just, let’s not mess around and let a lot of time go by, let’s just bring in a whole new leadership team. So, you know, that wasn’t the case, for me coming in as someone that they saw it and, you know, they entered, you know, that 50 candidates that they were looking for, like, they just wanted to be very careful. So when I came in, you know, I felt it was my responsibility to really work closely with the team that was there, I’d really partner very closely with the founder that was in the CEO role and was stepping down. I felt like I that was the mission that was given to me, it wasn’t to come in and just like blow the leadership team up scorched earth, and you know, it was to really take what what had been built, and, you know, nurture, and grow it from there,

Kate 27:52
That is such a helpful distinction. And that makes perfect sense. So, as we wrap up your experience as CEO of a startup in a tough macro environment, with fundraising, and all of that, how has that been? I mean, your previous positions, a lot of those were product engineering. Now, you know, your CEO in this climate, curious on what that experience has been like for you. And if you can share any advice for those listening?

Jim Gochee 28:23
Yeah, it’s been a tough experience, you know, the overarching slowdown and tack in tech spending impacted us pretty significantly. And this has been true of, you know, my peer group and other, you know, CEOs and founders that I’ve talked to who sell to tech companies, so we saw, you know, we sell to tech teams, right? We primarily sell tech companies, and, you know, budgets got frozen, and people were laying off last year and in all that, and so, you know, I think the simplest thing is I had a lot of things I had to do in a short period coming in as a new CEO, but now navigating that situation was tricky. Now, I did have some experience in 2007 and 8 in another startup period, you know, the housing market crisis, but that also affected every business to like, yes, you know no one no one dodged that bullet completely. And, you know, I grew up in New England, so I’m like, you know, I can stretch $1 If I have and so I feel like, okay, this is really bad timing. I stepped into the job and immediately had to freeze hiring and then we had to lay people off, spending and realign and we didn’t cut enough so we had to go through another round of realignment. All focus was on growth with no care to cost and money was easily accessible through VCs, right? And it just really shifted overnight, the growth was still important. Of course, growth was harder to get because of the tech slow down, right. But it was not at all costs at all. All people wanted to see viable businesses overnight.

Kate 30:16
Right, right. That’s absolutely, exactly right.

Jim Gochee 30:19
And that was a really tricky spot to be in. And so as a leader, you know, you just have to think, really big picture about, okay, well, how much can I really afford to invest? You know, like, there’s lots of decisions that are made in the company, but one of the things the CEO has to figure out is where you’re going to put your money, how much money you’re going to put in, because it’s your responsibility to make sure the company is going to survive, where so you need to reach targets and goals, but you need to be you know, you got to allocate, Okay, you go to market, I’m gonna put this number of dollars and product development, this number of dollars. And, you know, can I reach my goals, and the goals are typically getting to the next stage of fundraising. Some companies, you know, they figured out a way to, you know, get to cash flow, even. So, they’re kind of breakeven, we were really not able to do that, like we were, you know, we were like on this high growth trajectory, but we were still pretty small from a revenue perspective. So we had to figure out how to keep growing and get to the next round of fundraising. And I talked to a lot of investors and I would just ask them, like, how do you even look at deal flow and deals these days? And one guy said, That’s a great question. I think I know what to say no to because that’s like, no that’s terrible. But I’m not sure when to say yes, anymore. Interesting. The world had gotten reset for the VCs as well. And they were trying to calibrate you know, what did it what did it Yes, look like? So yeah, so navigating all that I would say, this has been one of the biggest challenges of my career, but I love a challenge. I like, you know, solving problems. And so I, you know, I wake up every day excited to go and you know, sort of, it’s like a puzzle, like, put the pieces of the puzzle together. And I’m competitive, I want to win, you know, I want to be successful.

Kate 32:11
That’s great. That’s great. I think Blameless is in very good hands. This has been really enjoyable talking to you, because you’ve just broken down everything in such a clear, concise manner, and you obviously know where to focus. Thank you. For those listening. Where can they find out more information about Blameless because it sounds incredibly helpful.

Jim Gochee 32:34
So come check out our website. That’s the best place to go. And it’s easy. It’s blameless.com. We would love to talk to you. So we have a place on the website where you can contact us, you could ask for a demo, or you can just reach out and talk to us. And we’d love to have conversations where a pretty low pressure team when it comes to sales, and we’d love to talk to people, you can also find me on LinkedIn. So Jim Gochee, happy to talk to anybody. And well, I mean, that’s one of the fun parts of my job is actually, you know, connecting with people. And I had, I had a lot of fun doing that at New Relic, I think we had over 15,000 customers. And I would go out on the road and fly all over the world and, you know, talk to different companies that we’re doing really big and interesting things and just love. I don’t know, I love building things. And I love technology and the intersection of cloud and DevOps. And now AI is just like a really, really fun time.

Kate 33:31
I bet it’s so rewarding to have those conversations with people that literally are on the front lines of making these changes, right, the innovation you must see is probably so exciting.

Jim Gochee 33:43
It’s very exciting. Yeah, I’m very appreciative. I’ve had this opportunity in my career to be involved with software development when it got fun, like Apple, you know, before was like mainframes, that was the not fun type. Yeah. And then to see the Internet where to got fun, and broadly distributable. And I feel like I may be catching the sort of, you know, like, latter part of my career with AI, which has got everybody wondering, you know, where’s where is this going? And how’s it gonna affect me? I’ve been very, very fortunate.

Kate 34:15
It’s nice to see your positive take on it. All right. When there’s all this other No, you know, kind of bad news out there. This was very positive, uplifting conversation. I appreciate you being here.

Jim Gochee 34:29
Thank you so much jam. Yeah, Kate, you’re very welcome. This has been a lot of fun.

Kate 34:30
Thank you.

Jim Gochee 34:31
You’ve been listening to Startup Success. To make sure you don’t miss out on future episodes. Subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player. Like what you hear. Tap the number of stars you think the show deserves and Apple podcasts. For more tools and resources for your own startup success. Check out burklandassociates.com. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time…